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Hellenophile
| | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 02:58 pm EST : |   
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The Cyclamen Society is putting a lot of energy into trying to determine exactly what factors can be used to identify this subspecies. The following photos show examples of the plant that can be found in Western Crete, you will see that most leaves have a lustrous sheen but as the last photo shows not always.
Hellenophile
- Surrey,
Zone "?"
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Terryk
 Supporting Member
My Weather
My Garden
My Time
| | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 03:06 pm EST : |
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Your photos illustrate just how one can get hooked on the leaf patterns. It is amazing that they represent the same species.
Terryk
- NY,
Zone "6"
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Dee_b
Supporting Member
| | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 03:31 pm EST : |
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I'm not a hederifolium fan, generally, but I really like this ssp, and what lovely plants, yet again Melvyn. Photo number two is my favourite. I see what you mean about the 4th plant....not at all shiny. I was always with the belief that confusum had shiny fleshy leaves, in fact I took a label from one of my plants, thinking it must've been labelled incorrectly, when in fact, it was probably me that was incorrect.
To my dismay and expense, I've found I cannot keep these plants outside over winter....the foliage turns to mush! Are yours kept under glass Melvyn?
Dee_b
- West Midlands,
Zone "7"
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Tim
Supporting Member
| | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 03:36 pm EST : |
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Is that first plant from Polyrinia, Melvyn? I have a couple of plants here which look similar to that plant and I grew them from seed which came from you.
Tim
- Cambridgeshire,
Zone "7 "
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Tony_willis
| | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 04:32 pm EST : |
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Melvyn an interesting question.Earlier before the rain started yet again, I was looking at some of my leaves and I have a couple of plants from SW Turkey which look a bit different from most of my others and I will try for a picture tomorrow. I also have a plant from Mt Olympus which has shiny leaves and two from the Vicos Gorge with leaves like your second photograph. I am not sure without comparing the plants side by side this will lead anywhere and I certainly have no skills in this area just interested.I thought one of the factors was leaf size and again I have one from near Monenvassia with quite large floppy leaves
Tony_willis
- Lancashire,
Zone "7"
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Tony_willis
| | Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 11:13 am EST : |
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Here is my hederifolium from Monemvassia which is taken on a 2ft square paving stone to illustrate its size. I did find a lot of plants on the western most prong of the Pelopennese with very large leaves this autumn
There are two pictures of my plant from Turkey.I know that C G-W shows it as being ssp hederifolium from there but who knows.
At the moment it is too wet and dark to photograph any others
Tony_willis
- Lancashire,
Zone "7"
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Matthias
Supporting Member
| | Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 11:38 am EST : |
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If these plants near Palermo/Sicily are subspecies confusum there is, at least in random plants that I have observed, a difference in surface structure. In the first two photos look closely at the surface structure of the seedling leaves: They are quite strongly sculptured. This can also be seen in No. 4 (the blow up of the third photo). The leaves also have this lustrous sheen, Melvyn. But, of course, I don't know if this is a reliably consistent character.
In ssp hederifolium the leaf surface is much smoother, at least in everything I have seen in Italy and on the Balkans.
Compare photo 5 (Tuscany).
Matthias
- South Germany,
Zone "7"
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Roys
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 10:49 am EST : |
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Hi All,
A little late but...Happy New year. I haven't posted for a little while.
Haven't many C. h confusum, but took photos of a couple I have had for 2 years or so...
They were purchased from a well known Nursery in this part of the world...
I would so like to do an expedition, and seeing the pictures from this thread from all the participants just further whets my appetite.
I have taken a photograph of pots of confusum seedlings growing away. They are ex-CSE 94217. they were sown January 2007, from last years society list. Can anyone let me know at what age a true patterned leaf will develop?
Dee, whilst not grown outside in the ground, both pots of confusum are kept outside in their pots, albeit close to a fence which gives protection. They have not been kept in a greenhouse. There is seed set on one of the plants.
Roys
- West midlands,
Zone "8a"
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Dee_b
Supporting Member
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 03:22 pm EST : |
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Hmm, I'm still unsure about keeping them outside myself,but I could really use the space they take up in the greenhouse... it's good that you can keep them outside Roy.
I'm not sure if it's just the leaves that are affected by frost or if the tuber isn't as hardy as the straight hederifolium.
The following are a couple of my plants (sorry about the quality of the photo).
I've noticed that all my plants have a beaded edge too, not unlike C. colchicum. Is that another general feature of confusum?
The majority of my plants also have small(ish) leaves, compared to the usual hederifolium, are very leggy and don't set seed easily.
Dee_b
- West Midlands,
Zone "7"
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Roys
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 01:37 pm EST : |
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I posted a couple of photographs of confusum yesterday saying that I kept them outside all the time. I haven't been concerned about frost damage etc, but a major problem for me has been a worry about over-watering. I think that happened last night after a rain "shower" in my back garden...
Ah well, managed to save this confusum...
This was one which was for sale at the Birmingham AGM 2007...
I think I might keep them ( and all my potted cyclamen ) in the greenhouse in the future !!!
Roys
- West midlands,
Zone "8a"
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Dee_b
Supporting Member
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 01:56 pm EST : |
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Well, thats a lovely photo of your garden pond Roy, but I thought you were gonna show us your garden...oops sorry, that is your garden!
Seriously, thats some pretty bad flooding for our part of the Midlands...I think your hardy exotics are gonna be feeling sad.
I hope that water subsides soon.
Do you have cyclamen planted in the garden, better dig them up and put them in pots quickly.
Is that a hederifolium confusum, It looks to have silver leaves.
Dee_b
- West Midlands,
Zone "7"
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Roys
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 06:55 pm EST : |
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Dee,
Yes I do have coum etc planted in the garden/pond/swamp. Well, I think they are still there!!!
I think I might need a boat to check them all out if it keeps raining...No, I think the flooding is subsiding a little...
I am sure there was a pot on show at the C.S. AGM last September which was a silver leaf confusum. The plant in the photograph was labelled confusum.
I wonder if a silver leaf confusum can be confirmed by other posters?
Roys
- West midlands,
Zone "8a"
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Hellenophile
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 03:23 pm EST : |
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Hello Dee, the plants photographed are under glass, kept just above freezing, simply because I dont want to run the risk of losing them. I do also have some plants in the garden in a sheltered place against a fence and they are fine so far this winter.
Close Tim, it was from Topolia but the plants from the two locations are so alike that you cannot tell the difference.
Tony, from the photograph this certainly looks like what most of us would describe as confusum. The only really clear difference between the plants from Crete and other confusum locations so far is the chromosome count, this is the area that the Cyclamen Society is undertaking further research. The plants from Turkey appear to me to be var. hederifolium.
My photos show that it is not consistent, its just that the majority (from Crete)are.
Roy, I think that seed from Crete was probably the origin of the plants from your midlands source, yours plants certainly show the same characteristics.
Yes it is for the majority from Crete but again not always consistent.
Having looked at many thousands in Crete I have yet to see a silver leaf form.
I hope I have responded to all your points but I do want to thank you all for taking an interest in this thread and hopefully one day we will have clear answers. It may be obvious from my response but I should perhaps clarify that the approach that we have adopted so far is to use Crete as a base and then to see where plants from other locations differ.
Hellenophile
- Surrey,
Zone "?"
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Dee_b
Supporting Member
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 04:19 pm EST : |
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It's been an interesting thread Melvyn. It's certainly made me think about the hederifolium plants I've seen on the greek islands I've visited...and indeed, at the ones in my collection.
I will be looking at the plants more closely now, and certainly not jumping to conclusions.
I look forward to reading the conclusions to your findings on this subspecies in the Cyclamen Journal.
Dee_b
- West Midlands,
Zone "7"
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Roys
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 06:24 am EST : |
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Thanks Melvyn for the information. looking at the plant label again, it does state "possibly ex-Corfu".
Once again can I echo the comments. This has been an extremely interesting and enlightening thread. It does make me want to go back to Greece and the islands, and this time to look and study the plants. One day I would hope to go on an expedition. Thanks.
Roys
- West midlands,
Zone "8a"
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Roys
| | Posted on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 07:46 pm EST : |
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This hederifolium has been grown from seed originally collected from Crete.
It has quite a good pattern and the under leaf has a strong "red/purple" colour which contrasts well with the leaf as a whole...
I am not sure whether it is ssp confusum, but it has quite good seed set. Certainly worth seeing what seedlings develop from this plant.
Roys
- West midlands,
Zone "8a"
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Terryk
Supporting Member
My Weather
My Garden
My Time
| | Posted on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 09:08 pm EST : |
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Roy, that's a really handsome leaf pattern and the plant is robust. I see the coils tucked in between the leafs, so looks like you will have seed from it.
Terryk
- NY,
Zone "6"
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Roys
| | Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 07:56 am EST : |
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Hi Terry,
Yes it is a robust and vigorous plant. I do like the leaf shape and pattern.
There are a few coiled pedicels so seed set looks ok.
Would ideally like to know if it is ssp confusum, but either way hopefully there will be some good seedlings develop from it.
Roys
- West midlands,
Zone "8a"
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