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Subtopic Gardener Posts Last Post Archive through March 19, 2007 Gardenfiend 20  03-19-07  03:15 pm

Author Message   Rogervanloon  Posted on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 04:54 pm EST :    Berthold, I think this is a splendid flower. I suppose the seed came from a 'wild' Camellia japonica - the true species, occurring in nature, from which all C. japonica cultivars were bred? I find it so very sad that this wild species is so very difficult to find in the trade. Congratulations, well worth the wait! Rogervanloon - Flanders, Zone "USDA 7b"   Gardenfiend  My Weather My Garden Posted on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 05:56 pm EST :    Fifteen years. What patience! But I agree, it is well rewarded. I've been untrue to my own principles and picked up this semi-double at a garden centre recently. I can't resist pink. 'Citation' Gardenfiend - Germany, Zone "7a"   Valia  My Favorite Photo My Garden Journal My Weather My Garden My Time Posted on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 07:26 pm EST :    Camellias have an ambience of gentleness, and your last image captures that perfectly, Mara. Anne Valia - WA (summer) UT (winter), Zone "5a and 9a"   Galanthophile  My Favorite Photo My Garden Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 05:31 am EST :    Berthold your red single is stunning! I'm not suprised you didn't resist Citation Mara - it's beautiful. Galanthophile - Ann (Northern England), Zone "8"   Takeuchi  Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 07:29 am EST :    Hello, Mara san I looked your beautiful new camellia. I wonder your new camellia would make a nice sport. How beautiful it is if the flowers of variegated, red and white bloom at a time with camellia. Your fascinating article brought me to look my old camellia "Ezonishiki" and found same phenomena this year. The white flower appeared! This is my first experience of my "N years'" camellia history. The red flowers appears rather often and the twig of red flowers usually very vigorous so we cut off them as not to be occupied all the tree with red. But the white flowers are very rare. I will make it important to be careful not to cut off. "Ezonishiki" is said to make sport sometimes. But white flower is But if your new cultivar would make easier sport it must be a new trend of camellia. Anyhow your camellia is ver beautiful. I would like to have it in some future. Please look at my photos of "Ezonishiki". But I wonder the coincidence of this time on the opposite side of the earth. Normal variegated flower of "Ezonishiki" The red sport of "Ezonishiki" The half red sport of "Ezonishiki" The white flower of "Ezonishiki" The total appearance of the tree of "Ezonishiki". The red flower is looked at the low backward under the branch. Takeuchi - Saitama-Ken, Zone "8b~9a"   Takeuchi  Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 08:44 am EST :    Hello Roger san I hadn't expect to meet you here again. The native camellia was sold everywhere after the wold war 2, but they are displaced soon after the cultivars were easy to get. As the variegated flower cultivars can not be made by crossing, you can easily get the original form of C.japonica from the each variegated cultivar by seedling. Of cause same variation range would exist. There are so many natural camellia bushes spread wide in Japan. They are sometimes the material to make Tsubaki-oil suit for hair comb. They are all species C.japonica. Malgorzata san already showed the Kyushu form of wild camellia in other thread. The same looks of camellia is spread wide in nature in Kyushu. Oh,the origin of Wabisuke group and "Kurotsubaki" which can not be crossed to C.japonica are still unsolved. The gene technique will solve them in future. Natural camellia in Kanda, Kyushu Takeuchi - Saitama-Ken, Zone "8b~9a"   Gardenfiend  My Weather My Garden Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 02:48 am EST :    Hello Takeuchi san, Your Ezonishiki is the most amazing of all: with four different flowers! The half-red half-striped ones are amusing I haven't seen that before. The white one in my first photo didn't sport, however. All its flowers are white. The second photo is of a different camellia: Paul Jones Supreme. It was actually a mistake - I had ordered C. japonica tricolor and received it instead. It has more red branches than variegated. Do you think I should start removing red branches? If I cut them all off, the plant would be less than half its current size. If I leave them on, will it eventually have only red branches? What do you think? Gardenfiend - Germany, Zone "7a"   Takeuchi  Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 03:58 pm EST :    Mara san I possess several kind of variegated camellias and they make red flower branches without exceptation. From my experience they are fairly vigorous than that of variegated and easier to hit when take cuttings. Especially when the red flower branches appear at the top of the tree, they grow vigorously than that of variegated flower branches and the all the tree would be occupied earlier by the red branches. Of cause I prune off the red branch no sooner than I find it out before all the tree turns red. In the case of above photos I leave it on purpose at the lower branch and prune every year not to grow too vigorous. I do not know why the red branches are vigorous than those of variegated. Perhaps the content of chlorophyl in the leaves would be the more than that of the red flower branch. To remain the red branch is troublesome from the other aspect. When one take cuttings to propagate the variegated cultivar in flowerless season, he would produces valueless plants against to his conscience. In the most of case of the variegated camellias, the flower of the more white part than the red is the more beautiful. For example, "Iwanesibori" tree with white part and less red flower is prized. "Iwaneshibori" flower in my garden Takeuchi - Saitama-Ken, Zone "8b~9a"   Jgwoodard  My Garden Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 04:20 pm EST :    Mara and Takeuchi, these plants are very interesting and I saw several similar ones while in Japan during February. They seem quite variable and each flower is a unique combination of pink/red/white. Mara I thought of you when I saw this pristine pink one. The photos are from the area around the museums in Ueno Park. Most were medium size plants, but I also saw many large camellias at Rikugien (六義園) and more at Noda Nursery (野田園芸). Takeuchi-san, I believe Saitama is not too far from these places, right? What a wonderful area for plants and gardens. Jgwoodard - TN, Zone "7"   Gardenfiend  My Weather My Garden Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 05:10 pm EST :    Takeuchi-san, thank you for the information. I will try to do what you are doing - leave some red branches at the bottom, because I do like the red ones too. Joseph, you are so right - the pink camellia is exactly the colour I love. And it is a beautiful, less formal, double form. Your second photo closely resembles 'General Colletti' - but I suppose it is a similar Japanese variety. I was in Japan a couple of years ago in late October-early November and also visited Ueno park (and Tokyo national museum...), but I don't remember seeing any camellias at all. That was before my interest in camellias began so I probably wouldn't have noticed them out of flower. In fact I only saw a very few flowering in and around Kyoto, though it should have been sasanqua season. Or not? Gardenfiend - Germany, Zone "7a"   Rogervanloon  Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 03:53 pm EST :    Hello Takeuchi San, Yes, all Camellia japonica cultivars (several thousand registered ones) are sports or mutations from the original wild C. japonica, because that species does so very easily produces sports. And some cultivars do produce sports even more frequently than others. For example, in the 'Meikan' (Japanese book of cultivars) I read about 'Ezo-nishiki': "Mutations tending to appear as the tree matures". Which is beautifully illustrated by your photographs. However, I think that it is unlikely that the original wild species will be precisely reproduced by such a mutation, or by seed. I have several camellia seedlings (one registered) but there is no tendency to resemble the wild species. And, yes, coloured sports on the single-flowered white cultivars would be interesting. However, on those I have never seen sports. I have Shira Ogi, Fuji, and Alba Simplex (all similar), but with me, there are no sports on those. And, what I meant to say, I find it still surprising that there are thousands of C. japonica cultivars on the market, but the original wild one is not available here. I think it would be very interesting to compare the original one with the cultivars. However, recently, I have been able to obtain cutting material from a wild species from Korea (collected on Sochong Island). The cuttings seem to be forming roots successfully. I suppose that the plants will be very close to the original, Japanese, wild camellia. Which I still have been unable to find here. Rogervanloon - Flanders, Zone "USDA 7b"   Ton_hannink  My Garden Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 11:48 am EST :    Roger, I have a wild japonica. It is a subspecie and I look in the greenhouse which subspecie. I will make cuttings. Ton_hannink The Netherlands   Takeuchi  Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 12:01 pm EST :    I wonder that Woodard san and Mara san know particular about Japan! Yes, there are some garden or nursery which are specialized to camellia in Japan. As for the camellia history in Japan, the first description about camellia appeared AD740, 1,267 years ago. A white flowered camellia was offered to the emperor's garden. It is the proof that the white camellia was particular in nature even at that time. The most prosperous period of admiring camellias was 1650~1850 years. 66 variety of camellias appeared on the literature published in 1664, 205 varieties in 1710 and many varieties among them are still remaining now.The capital from the year of 794~1600 was Kyoto, later in Tokyo. There were famous mother trees of the old variety of camellia are still remaining in kyoto. Most of the old temple, shrine and private garden of rich men have camellia trees. The most famous grower specialized to camellia now is "Chinkaen" and "Chinjuen", both are the supplier of camellias to Tokyo city for more than 100years. In this case "Chin"=camellia We can see many varieties of camellias there. Both two are situated close to Tokyo also about 3km from my residence. Very good situation for the camellia collecting as Woodard san pointed out. Mara san, late October-early November is the season of no camellia bloom. Very sorry. Thus the variations were collected in taking a long time from the innumerable trees in nature and the nature produced varieties with many years before the man noticed of its beauty. 500 thousand years? from when Japanese Islands were formed. Roger san, Please do not make haste to make such a wonderful varieties as we inherited from our ancestor. Though the variegation of camellia is supposed to be from an activity of virus, the ability of the infection is very very weak if any. I had never experienced to make the variegation from infection until now. Oh, I have heard that "Betty Shefield Supreme", the recent variegated camellia, was found from the germination of one of three seeds from Japan. It is talked as an "Story of Lucky" and if it is true, the variegation would occur from the seed. The native camellia bushes are seen everywhere in Japan mainly near the coastal area or islands south of Tokyo. As they are residue of over and over again selection, we never expect to find out the special formed or colored flower among them. They produces rather less flower in comparing to the mass of the leaves. As I already have indicated, the seedling of variegated varieties with red flower are nothing but wild camellia itself. The varieties of special form of flower are also wild camellia, the most of which were moved by our ancestors. Takeuchi - Saitama-Ken, Zone "8b~9a"   Golden_ca  Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 01:47 pm EST :    Heres mine - so nice to see signs of spring :0) Golden_ca - British Columbia, Zone "8"   Jgwoodard  My Garden Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 02:21 pm EST :    Perfection! Although I generally prefer singles, I can certainly appreciate forms like this. I very much enjoyed reading these posts, perhaps it's time I obtained my first camellia. :-) Jgwoodard - TN, Zone "7"   Rogervanloon  Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 03:02 pm EST :    Hello Takeuchi San, Thank you for your explanations, but some things still elude me, so I wonder if you can find the time for still more details. You said that all of your variegated camellias do occasionally produce red sports, and Takeuchi wrote on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 12:01 pm: As I already have indicated, the seedling of variegated varieties with red flower are nothing but wild camellia itself. Now I can understand that camellia cultivars (like other plants) can revert (by sporting) to the original seedling. But, do you mean that those red sports are not themselves the 'wild' japonica - but that their seedlings are? And, if so, I suppose that only holds true for self-pollinated seed? (Surely, otherwise there would be influence from the pollinator?) Anyhow, I hope that Ton can supply a cutting in the future (Ton I'm sure that I can give something in return). 'Ezo-nishiki' is known here as 'Tricolor', but I have not seen the sports of it. Rogervanloon - Flanders, Zone "USDA 7b"   Takeuchi  Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 10:02 am EST :    Hello Roger san I sought the red sport of variegated variety of camellia in my garden and took photos. To find out red flower within the variegated variety is very easy. The red flower appears almost every year and cut off whenever I find it. If I take cuttings of the red branch it would make only red flower forever. The red sport of "Kujaku tsubaki" . You can see the variegated one on the left side of the photo. The red sort of "Mikinjaku". Have I shown you the normal variegated flower already? The red flower of "Iwaneshibori". The wild form of camellia of my next door garden, of which mother tree had been in my garden before but I moved it to my mountain field. The grand mother tree was planted in my garden before 50 years more. Sorry! the photo of out forcus. Takeuchi - Saitama-Ken, Zone "8b~9a"   Rogervanloon  Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 04:15 pm EST :    Hello Takeuchi San, Many thanks for your pictures. Yes, it is indeed clear that those red sports are examples of twigs that have reverted closer to their origin, the wild camellia. But I suppose that there are still differences between the red sports of the different variegated cultivars - and between those sports and the wild species? Since Ezo-Nishiki is such a very old cultivar, I think its red sports might be very close to the wild. By the way, the clematis plants (from the seed you sent) are doing very well, many thanks. Rogervanloon - Flanders, Zone "USDA 7b"   Takeuchi  Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 08:36 am EST :    Hello Roger san I found a good specimen of C.japonica original form planted in the private small garden close to my house. I asked the owner to take photos. The Camellia trees are very commonly planted in many private gardens but most of them are double pink or red camellias without variegation, "Otome" or "Kootome". I also say thank you for your clematis seeds which are now growing well in my seed planter. Takeuchi - Saitama-Ken, Zone "8b~9a"