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Germination. Species vs hybrids; moist vs dry

Garden Forum » Hellebores in the Garden Forum » Germination. Species vs hybrids; moist vs dry

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Matthias

Supporting Member

Posted on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 11:42 am EST :

In another thread Jeff wrote:

"I no longer keep seed pots of hybridus or species for more than 1 season, if there is no germination in year 1 than keeping the pots for a further year has proved pointless. I also now do not hold the warm/cold cycle as being an absolute requirement for germination. Northern hemisphere seed arrives here September-October and I sow immediately. In some pots there is always the odd seedling appear within 6-8 weeks of sowing, during this time the temperatures are steadily increasing but given the reverse seasons the seed pots are never chilled. The appearance of the odd early seedling has shown to bode well for the overall rate (seed usually germinates here any time from March onwards).
I always soak imported seed prior to sowing in an open bark based mix. Over the years I have tried soaking in sugar solutions, addition of spray wetting agents to the water, low levels of hypochlorite or hydrogen peroxide, all have failed to give improved germination compared to good old H2O.
So I still rate fresh seed but more importantly following collection seed must be stored in a manner that maintains the seed in a plump state, once the seed dries out to a certain moisture content then it will not recover. One easy way to avoid seed drying out is to store seed in a small sized plastic container with a tightly fitting screw cap, however seed must be ripe as fungus growth can occur. Once seed is sown ensure mix does not dry out but also avoid over watering as this will cause seed to rot or fall prey to soil borne fungus diseases.
In summary, mother nature will always have the upper hand, as she has been at the game much longer than any of us. Seed germination can be difficult but good rates can be achieved with diligence and experience, to use the green grocers saying 'fresh is still the best'."

In the same thread Mike wrote:

"I don't find species any poorer germinators then hybrids provided that the seed is fresh and still moist and not left too long in the carpel - remember I posted a while back that dessication starts in the carpel just before full ripeness. The problem is wild collected seed because of the process,transport,sorting and shipping out is far less fresh than seed just collected from the garden."

*******************

My observation: Seeds from species plants in the garden and hybrids in the garden, harvested on the same day, stored for two days in ziplock bags (no dessication), sown two days later (mid June) into the same substrate and kept in the same shady and cool place in the garden germinate differently. Germination of the hybrid seed started in mid December and had reached 100% by late January, while germination of species seeds started in mid February and has still not reached a level of 25%.

Compare the photos below (taken yesterday). The first is a small part of a tray containing x hybridus seeds. The second is the same size of a tray containing species seeds. Germination in the latter has only begun two weeks ago and seems erratic. two plants are up and two have just started emerging.

Plant Forum

Matthias - South Germany, Zone "7"

Jeffnz

Posted on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 02:28 pm EST :

Matthias
Please continue to report on the final germination rates are with these two as this may dispel the belief that fresh seed will result in high germination. If this does transpire then unfortunately I am not sure what new theory could be advanced to account for the result. At least one that we couLd use to maximise or predict germination.
Within a hybridus seed pot I always see a time lag between the emergence of the first seedling and the last, usually a maximum of a month.
I still hold the opinion that seed dessication
is a key influence on germination, however it is likely that it may be one of many factors that influence germination.

Jeffnz - Wellington, Zone "?"

Matthias

Supporting Member

Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 06:22 am EST :

Jeff wrote:
"I am not sure what new theory could be advanced to account for the result"

Jeff, here is my tentative theory for this:

First:
A precondition for good germination is that the seeds are fresh.

Second:
Through natural selection hellebore populations in the wild have adapted to a wide variety of different climates. These adaptations affect flowering times (different from species to species and within species from population to population), leaf habits (wintergreen to deciduous), flower colours (white, green, yellow, magenta) AND also germination habits. Wintergreen plants are adapted to wintermild climates and germinate in winter (winter rain climates) while decidous plants in more continental climates with thick snow covers until March germinate later in spring. It always strikes me how much hellebores retain their genetically determined wild habits in the garden. So, I would expect H. bocconei (like H. x hybridus) to germinate very early in the autumn, while H. torquatus should not germinate before the end of February. This theory correlates quite well with my observations in my garden, but I have not done a thorough study.

Input , please!

... this is what I'm seeing outside

Matthias - South Germany, Zone "7"

Terryk

Supporting Member

My Weather
My Garden
My Time

Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 07:01 am EST :

Matthias wrote on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 11:42 am:
harvested on the same day, stored for two days in ziplock bags (no dessication), sown two days later (mid June)

Matthias, have you ever sown seed that has been stored longer and had any success?

I have had some species seed from Tim, that I am sure does not arrive to me as quickly as you outline above and honestly, sometimes I am too busy to get it sown right away. I have had some germinate. I am not sure if the amount of cyclamen that I have has also added to my problems-not enough time to care for them all properly

Terryk - NY, Zone "6"

Addict

Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 12:59 pm EST :

My observations differ sadly as it would be very neat to agree with your theory Matthias - indeed it's exactly what I would expect from an evolutionary stand point.
Howver, this year I planted about 4ooo seeds both x hybridus and species. They were planted over a 2 week period and the x hybridus were of similar freshness althought not quite as different carpels are pollinated by me and harvested as they ripen.
The species are a mix or your seeds from Tim, Tim's own and my hand pollinated ones.
All kept in my unheated potting shed.
Results so far anecdotal (don't) have time to count- sorry.
First to germinate;Nov/Dec thibetanus c.70% germination hard to say as slugs mountaineered to eat the cotyledons off some as they emerged!Some still coming through.
Then xhybridus, torquatus, bocconei purpurescens viridis and several of your "new" species began to emerge in early Jan,
Certainly the % germination of x hybridus is slightly higher overall but the species continue to emerge.
Niger and x niger hybrids are just beginning to emerge this last week and are very erratic so far.
Then foetidus began in Feb but are very erratic and still continue to come through.
Atrorubens from 3 sources haven't yet germinated.

Best I can do at present but might find time in a week or so to count a % overall by species.
Sorry these results don't fit - I thought there would be a progression from warmer lower sited to higher colder ones but not seeming that way so far.

addict Staffordshire zone 8(just) UK

Matthias

Supporting Member

Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 04:58 am EST :

Addict wrote on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 12:59 pm:
My observations differ sadly as it would be very neat to agree with your theory

Luckily, as this gives us more opportunity to try to develop new and better theories ...

Addict wrote on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 12:59 pm:
All kept in my unheated potting shed.

Could that offer a clue to a better understanding? What are the summer temperatures in that shed? What are the temperature fluctuations between day and night? Could it be that your seeds (species and hybrids) "interpret" your summer-and-early-autumn-in-the-shed-conditions as a very mild Mediterranean winter so that they start germinating much earlier than mine, where summer days are much hotter and nights colder? In other words, would it be helpful to speculate if the climatic conditions under which the seeds wait in the ground and are triggered into germination play an important role?

Which "climatic" conditions do you offer your seeds in June/July in your inverted climate, Jeff? Do they go through a wet and cool phase, as in the wild?

Matthias - South Germany, Zone "7"

Jgwoodard

My Garden

Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 09:50 am EST :

Most species seed has been both slow and erratic for me (with poorest results being vesicarius and thibetanus on average, though some Balkan species have also not given high germination rates), but in most cases 'decent' numbers germinated. As many of you know, I sow directly in the ground in prepared areas, so the conditions vary depending on the weather etc.

On the other hand, I've had hybrid seed to not germinate in large numbers and species seed to have nearly universal germination. There are simply too many variables for me to conceptualize it very much, though it is interesting.

Generally speaking, however, my observations coincide somewhat with those of Matthias though I have not kept up with percentages. In many cases the order of germination is quite similar to the order of new growth on older seedlings and plants. In my garden, the plants certainly retain their wild habits, but my climate is not radically different from much of the non-coastal European habitats.

Jgwoodard - TN, Zone "7"

Matthias

Supporting Member

Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 01:36 pm EST :

Jgwoodard wrote on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 09:50 am:
In many cases the order of germination is quite similar to the order of new growth on older seedlings and plants.

Joseph, that describes it very well for me.

Matthias - South Germany, Zone "7"

Jeffnz

Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 07:22 pm EST :

Matthias
Typically June/July here is wet and cold, seed pots are outside under tree cover but air temperatures rarely get below freezing thankfully no snowfall in the garden. We experience the odd frost but this usually disappears by midday. Our winter conditions are very different from the Balkans and may be a reason why I struggle to get germination with Balkan species. Often thought that seed may rot under our conditions.

Jeffnz - Wellington, Zone "?"

Matthias

Supporting Member