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Matthias
 Supporting Member
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 02:35 am EST : |   
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Jeff, H. odorus is like all hellebores variable in many characters including flower shape. The site is directly by the roadside, many plants were more or less damaged by late frosts or snow from the snow plough, so there were not many plants to chose from for photo purposes. In addition it was very windy that morning which is a special challenge for a photographer wanting to take close ups. In short: many flowers there are well rounded, but I remember seeing that starry form that we see in the Slovene odorus in the other odorus pic.
I have 6 plants raised from seed collected at that site and they are THE BEST odorus in my garden. 5 of them have rounded flowers, 1 has a very pronounced starry form.
Most wild hellebore flowers that are officially described as "green" are actually more or less yellow-green to primrose especially as they age.
The photo represents the true colour as well as possible with this terrible JPEG compression reducing it to under 100 kb.
You are right about that re-naming issue! My explanation is that these things take a lot of time because we want/need to make sure that a new taxonomy reflects the situation in the wild as correctly as possible, which is absolutely not the case with the present naming system. After your first and second trip you get a strange feeling more or less along these lines: "Somehow these plants don't fit the official present description." Then you return to have a closer look. Then you start discussing this with friends who have also seen these plants. Then you find that something needs to be done and you develop some ideas. Then you go back to find out if your new ideas can be confirmed by what you find in the wild. You see, all this takes many years ...
One thing I can say here is: "torquatus" will not be a species name in the future partly because it simply does not fit the plants in the wild and partly and more importantly because it was first applied on a garden plant of unknown origin.
Decisions for the new names (epithets) have already been made and will officially be published in a book. Till then I can only ask you for some patience.
The members of this forum know much more about this problem than anyone else in the gardening world.
Matthias
- South Germany,
Zone "7"
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Jgwoodard
My Garden
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 09:57 am EST : |
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Matthias,
I've been anticipating this, and I'm very glad your timing was right. The first photo is wonderful. I'm also impressed by the color on the H. purpurascens, and certainly the 'exciting' plant from west Croatia is indeed exciting. It seems Epimedium is rather common in Slovenia, or is it coincidence from the chosen photos? I didn't notice it often in Croatia and Bosnia, though there were some plants; the companion plants and overall habitat are certainly among the joys of the experience. Thanks for sharing so soon after such an intensive trip! When do you go to Albania?
Jgwoodard
- TN,
Zone "7"
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Matthias
Supporting Member
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 01:18 pm EST : |
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Joseph, the Albania trip will be in less than two weeks and that's why I worked one day and one night to develop (Lightroom) 420 of our photos and finish this. In Albania the focus will be on a special problem which is a population of plants that seem not to fit any description and which grow in an area where you would not expect wild hellebores; the trip will be just a long weekend.
Yes, I agree, purpurascens can have wonderful colour but it is strange how some people are absolutely unimpressed by these plants. It seems that the colour is perceived very differently by different people: some just find them grey.
Epimedium alpinum is a frequent companion of hellebores in Slovenia and northern Croatia and, of course, also in North Italy. As the name implies, it seems to be bound more or less to the larger Alpine region part of which is represented by the Slovene Dinarides. Other typical companions are Anemone nemorosa and A. ranunculoides, Pulmonaria officinalis and P. rubra, Primula veris, Hacquetia epipactis, Cyclamen purpurascens, Galanthus nivalis, different crocuses, Erythronium dens-canis (pink and white), Hepatica nobilis (blue, pink, white), to name just a few.
Here we see developing flower stalks on Epimedium alpinum.
Matthias
- South Germany,
Zone "7"
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Lovinlife
Supporting Member
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 01:42 pm EST : |
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Wonderful indeed! What a treat it must be to find these.
Lovinlife
- Utah,
Zone "5"
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Jeffnz
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 03:06 pm EST : |
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Matthias the photos you posted of purpurascens are indeed a plant with great flower colour. Colour variation and plant characteristics may be one reason why this species has not gained the popularity of other species. I was given seed from a local source of plants which was supposedly raised from wild collected seed. Flower colour was essentially green with only a hint of purple, plant size was small, definitely deciduous and prone to black spot, most other species and hybridus in my garden are not susceptible to fungal disease. Given the combination of these features my own perceptions of the species are not positive but the colour of the flowers you photographed would alter my current view.
Jeffnz
- Wellington,
Zone "?"
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Matthias
Supporting Member
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 02:20 am EST : |
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Jeff, H. purpurascens can be a difficult plant in cultivation indeed. I have 18 large plants grown from seed that had been collected in the Hungarian Bukk Mountains by Will McLewin in the mid 90s and I have very mixed feelings about them. The Hungarian plants normally have large flowers (same size as odorus) and good flower colour, BUT:
1. They remain single leaf/single flower stalk plants over many years.
2. The leaves are extremely prone to fungal disease and often some leaves are black (not the Black Death) by the end of May which means that the plants don't gain enough strength to flower the following spring. Only one third of my 12 year old plants have produced one or two flower stalks this year. But, and that creates the mixed feelings, the ones that flower ARE wonderful!
Much, much better for me are a few F1 Hybrids from H. purpurascens crosses (purp. as seed parent). The plants are vigorous, clump up nicely, flower abundantly and the flowers are almost 100% like H. purpurascens.
To sum it up: I would recommend to grow one or two good true species plants and produce F1 hybrids with good, purple flowered H. x hybridus.
Provenance: I have a few H. purpurascens from Romania and they are very different from the ones coming from Hungary: The flowers are much smaller, the plants are smaller and the flower colour can be almost grey.
Matthias
- South Germany,
Zone "7"
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Jgwoodard
My Garden
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 09:23 am EST : |
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Matthias,
I'm not sure if it's the same colony (and if so, we were there at a later stage), but did you notice if the plants at the 'grassy roadside slopes' had any deformation of leaf material? The colony I'm thinking of had some of the most horticulturally attractive leaves I have seen; however, some looked quite sickly too so I'm not sure what was happening there.
Jgwoodard
- TN,
Zone "7"
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Jgwoodard
My Garden
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 09:39 am EST : |
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Anther thing that I find particularly interesting about these photos (particularly in photo six with a relatively young 'flower') is the absence of visible pollen on the anthers. They almost look 'bald'.
Jgwoodard
- TN,
Zone "7"
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Galanthophile
Supporting Member
My Favorite Photo
My Garden
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 10:24 am EST : |
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Interesting about purpurascens. My plant has never flowered since I bought it about 3 years ago but I'm willing to wait. Thanks also for the descriptions of companion plants.
Galanthophile
- Ann (Northern England),
Zone "8"
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Matthias
Supporting Member
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 02:04 pm EST : |
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Joseph, it is a flower in a very early stadium photographed in the morning just as the first pollen sacs are about to open, as you can see in the 100% crop of the photo :-)
The fluffy looking very white substance in that sandwich situation between the two less white layers (pollen leaves) is the pollen that will soon be released ...
like in this crop of the photo with the exciting spotting, that was taken later in the afternoon
where one can see the closed pollen sacs on the central anther and the two open ones where most of the pollen has already been fallen off or been removed or eaten eaten or ...
Matthias
- South Germany,
Zone "7"
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Matthias
Supporting Member
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 02:06 pm EST : |
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... "been" fallen off ... hahaha !!! 
Matthias
- South Germany,
Zone "7"
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Peppa
My Garden
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 01:33 am EST : |
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Matthias,
Thanks so much for posting the beautiful pictures!
Peppa
- WA,
Zone "8"
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Matthias
Supporting Member
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 08:00 am EST : |
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Joseph, this was later in the afternoon when we were heading towards Slovenia: I saw the plants, stopped the car, jumped out, took a few photos and jumped in again to go on. I didn't notice anything special there. A few days later, near Maribor, there was dumetorum with very nice, narrow and symmetrical leaves.
Matthias
- South Germany,
Zone "7"
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