Lividus pure or not?

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Author Message   Jeffnz  Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 10:57 pm EST :    Is it possible to obtain plants or seed from lividus plants of known provenance? Photos of plants in flower often appear on various forum sites and there appears to be a wide variation in leaf structure and markings. I have often wondered if the true species still exists in the wild or cultivation. Jeffnz - Wellington, Zone "?"   Addict  Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 03:38 am EST :    Jeff I have lividus of known provenance from 3 different sites and there is considerable variation between the plants from the 3 sites in terms of size and foliar markings. I should have some seed available this year if they continue as at present. addict Staffordshire zone 8(just) UK   Jeffnz  Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 01:56 pm EST :    Mike At last success?. Most of the the plants sold here as lividus have suspiciously toothed edges to the leaves which I have always believed indicates the influence of sternii hence my search for the real thing. Yes do keep me in mind for seed in a few months time, especially looking for the highest degree of leaf marking along with red stems. Jeffnz - Wellington, Zone "?"   Judith  My Weather Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 05:37 am EST :    Hi Folks, Now that our season has slowed down a bit I have a chance to check out the Helleborus sites to see what's happening. If you have photos of your lividus Mike I'd be interested to see them. My plants are from seed I bought Will McLewin. They are as you and Jeff mentioned, very different. One is almost a foot tall while the others are much shorter. Some are toothed, others not. Has anyone seen H. lividus in the wild? best to all Judith Judith - Va., Zone "7"   Jeffnz  Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 02:00 pm EST :    Hi Judith I seem to recall that Will stated in his catalogue (some years since I looked at one) that his lividus seed was open pollinated from garden plants, hence the likelihood of cross pollination with sternii was always on the cards. My lividus plants were raised from seed from hand pollinated plants but the parents were sourced by the nursery from Will. I have never seen a recent report of seed being available from wild plants or if there are indeed any plants left in the wild. Jeffnz - Wellington, Zone "?"   Matthias  Supporting Member Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 02:03 am EST :    Hi Judith, hi Jeff, there is certainly a small population of wild H. lividus on the Balearic Islands left. I have not seen H. lividus in the wild but Will has and he has told me that morphological variation there is considerable. The forms we know from photos or from cultivated plants are selected individuals that, in the case of garden plants, are often the result of selection over several generations by breeders for marbled leaves with red pedicels etc (H. lividus can flower one year after sowing!). But they are certainly not representative for the true wild populations. After all, lividus and argutifolius are very closely related even though they were separated 15 to 20 million yeras ago! If you sow seeds from open pollinated garden plants in a hellebore nursery you have to expect a fair amount of hybrid plants coming from those seeds. The problem with true, wild collected seeds is the costs for collecting them. A trip costs valuable time and a few hundred Euros and if you can afterwards sell seeds for 20 or 30 Euros you simply don't do it. I made a few seed collecting trips to Italy and elsewhere and on the average got about 10% of my expenses back. How long does one do this? So, the only other reasonable option is careful hand pollination of plants of 100% true origin in the greenhouse. But then you only propagate plants that have been pre-selected and are by no means typical. And again here the experience is that you produce maybe 300 seeds and you can only sell 30. It is a problem of demand. In the case of H. lividus seedlings I would raise as many seedlings as possible from good, even open pollinated garden plants with reliable provenance. Then cull all deviant (hybrid) seedlings and you will end up with a fairly good strain of lividus plants. Plant height, btw, is no criterion, because that varies enourmously in the wild. H. lividus is not hardy for me, so I don't grow it, but I have seen a group of fantastic plants in Will's polytunnel. Here is a photo: Matthias - South Germany, Zone "7"   Judith  My Weather Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 05:45 am EST :    Thanks Both, always good to hear from you. I appreciate the input and the photo. It has been a number of years since I got the seed and the original number from Will is long gone. I am not really concerned about "pure" just curious about the varying sizes. The first photo is the taller plant The second was grown from something Will called compact form if memory serves. Both of these plants grow in our unheated but screened and covered stock house. The bit of protection and deep soil in the boxes about 36" (not quite a metre)allows me to grow plants that are not quite hardy. I can only grow lividus as a container plant otherwise I can well imagine that the folks who sell wild collected seed don't come close to breaking even. (No more than writing a single genus book I imagine.) Judith - Va., Zone "7"   Matthias  Supporting Member Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 07:52 am EST :    Judith, both forms look absolutely like lividus and the described differences are within the natural variation you also find in a wild population. The populations on the Balearic Islands had to adapt to quite a few climate changes over long geologic times concerning light, moisture and temperatures and that is why the gene pool offers such a variety of phenotypes. The tall one would be a woodland plant in a cool and shady canyon while the compact one looks like an adaptation to an open, fully exposed situation. Matthias - South Germany, Zone "7"   Jgwoodard  My Garden Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 10:10 pm EST :    I remember seeing a black and white photo of H. lividus in a perennial book by Graham Stuart Thomas. It was very influential in my subsequent interest in hellebores, as I thought it was the coolest plant I'd ever seen. :-) Also, this is an interesting (to use a diplomatic term) assessment regarding hardiness: http://www.plantdelights.com/Catalog/Current/Detail/01094.html All my seedlings from H. lividus (seed from Tim produced in his tunnel on somewhat isolated plants) died after germination due to cold. I do have plants that look similar to H. lividus that seem to suffer less than H. argutifolius, but I attribute it to their closer proximity to the insulating earth (mine are relatively short). Tim's examples may have been selective, but they were so much different than any H x sternii or 'H. lividus' I have seen. The stems and flowers were all quite pink (not just hints of pink here and there). I'm sure the range of plants are variable to the extent that simple observations regarding hardiness and physical features isn't enough to distinguish hybrids from true forms. Then again, all I care is if it can survive the winter or not. :-) Jgwoodard - TN, Zone "7"   Jeffnz  Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 02:48 pm EST :    Matthias Many thanks for clarifying what was my original question, like all wild populations there is the inevitable variations to contend with. While I can successfully grow lividus here I have returned to outside pot culture as almost all of the plants placed in the garden died after struggling for a few years. No real reason that I can establish but even pot culture is not always easy as the plants appear to suffer from dehydration and need constant rescuing with a good watering. Despite these limitations the plants are well worth perservering with, I have mainly selected a few smaller more compact plants to keep as they present a very attractive small bush even when not in flower. I have visions of using lividus as a compact edging plant to a bed of hybridus. Jeffnz - Wellington, Zone "?"

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