C. coum leaves are emerging

Garden Forum » Archives in the Garden Forum » Cyclamen in the Garden-Archives » Cyclamen-Archive #2-2005 » C. coum leaves are emerging « Previous    Next »

Author Message   Tim  Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 12:38 pm EST :    As the title says, Cyclamen coum leaves are emerging. All of these plants were re-potted at the end of July, and seem to be doing very well. Tim - Cambridgeshire, Zone "7 "   Matthias  Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 01:15 pm EST :    Tim, these leaves are simply fantastic. My favourite is 2, then 3 and 5. I hope you will be able to make seeds available ... ??? Matthias - Southern Germany, Zone "7"   Terryk  My Weather My Garden My Time Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 01:25 pm EST :    Tim, 3 is so unusual, the curving is something I have not seen before. Why is this happening? They are all wonderful! The last one is interesting too. It's almost a ghostly white-looks very fitting so close to Halloween. About when will these start to flower for you? Matthias, Tim had a great selection of coum this year. I am sure some if not all of these are on the list. Mine are just starting to emerge but are so much smaller than yours, I hope in time they look half as good as those. Terryk - NY, Zone "6"   Tim  Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 01:49 pm EST :    I like number 2 as well Matthias - something to do with the green flecks/spots I think. Number 5 belongs to a named form of C. coum called C. coum 'Tile Barn Graham', which is a Peter Moore selection. I have catalogued all of these plants with my own system, so seed can be saved from individual plants if required Matthias... Seed from all of these was on the 2005 list, Terry. The plant in number 3 is an odd one. The rippled leaves are strange, and the feature is consistent. I am as baffled as you are as to why it happens. These plants should flower from around Christmas onwards, right through to March. Tim - Cambridgeshire, Zone "7 "   Galanthophile  My Favorite Photo My Garden Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 02:46 am EST :    These are stunning! Galanthophile - Ann (Northern England), Zone "8"   Matthias  Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 02:51 am EST :    Cyclamen coum grown from seed seem to be comparatively fast: They are by far the first to germinate and produce first leaves in my garden, while hederifolium, mirabile and cilicium (all from Tim´s seed list this summer) seem to be much slower. Do you observe the same? Matthias - Southern Germany, Zone "7"   Matthias  Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 03:02 am EST :    One more question for you, Tim. How precisely do you pronounce the epithet "coum"? Is it pronounced like in "hold" or like "room" or "could"? Matthias - Southern Germany, Zone "7"   Gardenfiend  My Weather Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 04:04 am EST :    or with two syllables, co-um, which is how I've been pronouncing it? I couldn't say which I liked best - they are all so pretty. But the wavy-leaved one is especially interesting. Gardenfiend - Germany, Zone "7a"   Terryk  My Weather My Garden My Time Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 04:25 am EST :    So Matthias, you too are growing cyclamen seed? I agree, coum is fast to germinate, but graecum is even faster to germinate but I have some from last year that still only have the that first leaf they set. I did explore my pots and the tuber is a nice big size. Frustrating for me! Terryk - NY, Zone "6"   Matthias  Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 05:41 am EST :    Some food for thought: "There is some argument over the origin of the specific epithet coum. One belief is that coum means "of the island of Kos (Cos)", an island in the Aegean Sea. However, C. coum is not found on Kos. Charles Hollidge in the Cyclamen Society Journal in 1989 says coum means "from Coa" the eastern region of Cilician where C. coum is plentiful. Alternatively, the name may derive from the Greek word coum, meaning orbicular, describing the shape of the leaves, which are rounded, 2.5-6cm (1-2.5in) long, either shiny, dark green and unmarked or silvery with dark green patterns." From: http://www.rhs.org.uk/WhatsOn/gardens/wisley/archive/wisleypom03dec.asp Matthias - Southern Germany, Zone "7"   Tim  Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 12:01 pm EST :    I say coum as I would say 'room', as do most other enthusiasts I know of. I have heard Mara's pronunciation many times as well though, although oddly, it tends to be from gardeners who have no 'special' interest in cyclamen - people who like the plant but don't really give it a second look. You'd think it would be the other way around. Not putting you in that group, Mara - just my observations This brings about the way 'cyclamen is pronounced in the UK and the US. Americans say 'syke-la-men', whereas here we say sik-la-men. Not wanting to put the cat among the pigeons but.... the latter is correct. Only kidding - as long as we can have a conversation about the plants and we all know what everyone else is talking about, it doesn't really matter. Always find it amusing to hear an American pronounce it 'sik-la-men' though. The accent doesn't lend itself well to that pronunciation. Tends to remind me of Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins... It's odd Terry, how graecum is often one of the first to germinate, produces a good sized tuber relatively quickly, but then takes much longer to reach flowering age. C. coum is very easy, with many plants flowering at a year old. I'm surprised that you all like number 3 - I keep it for sentimental reasons (I don't like to throw plants away) and it does nothing for me at all - I don't find it ugly, I just don't find it particularly attractive either. I think the latter explanation for the naming of coum is the most likely, Matthias. What do you think? Tim - Cambridgeshire, Zone "7 "   Matthias  Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 01:03 pm EST :    If the epithet coum refers to the island of Kos/Cos the proper pronunciation will be co-um like in fo-rum (omitting the "r") with clearly two syllables, as Mara suggests. It would be an analogy to e.g. cilici-um, europae-um or baleari-cum ... etc, meaning "from Cos, Cilicia, Europa, ..." This would be the most plausible explanation if there was C. coum on Cos ... and this would not be the only case where botanists or taxonomists mistook one species for another. The "from Coa" explanation seems to me the most likely one, because C. coum is plentiful there and it would be a correct grammatical form. Also then it would have to be pronounced co-um. The latter explanation would have much better support if "coum" really was a Greek word meaning orbicular. Anyone here who can check this? Matthias - Southern Germany, Zone "7"   Galanthophile  My Favorite Photo My Garden Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 02:11 pm EST :    I say coum like room and sik la men but I'm a northern gal. Interesting thread :) Galanthophile - Ann (Northern England), Zone "8"   Tim  Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 02:32 pm EST :    I had presumed/took it for granted that "coum" was a Greek word meaning orbicular. I too would be interested to know whether or not this is true. If it is the "from Coa" explanation, is it likely that this might be the region of Turkey from where it was first described? C. coum is a very widespread species, so I'm curious to know why it might have been named after that particular region. It's safe to say that C. coum isn't on Cos. It's been fairly well botanized by various groups/individuals, including the Cyclamen Society. Tim - Cambridgeshire, Zone "7 "   Gardenfiend  My Weather Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 04:11 pm EST :    I can't find any Greek word on the pattern of coum. My fat Ancient Greek dictionary lists no words beginning with koum. The usual Greek stem for things orbicular is sphair-, from which comes sphere etc. I think it is most likely that the "um" part is simply a neuter Latin ending, like in cyclamen graecum. In which case the question remains, what or where is "co". Gardenfiend - Germany, Zone "7a"   Jgwoodard  Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 05:26 pm EST :    There is 'êýêëïò' which refers to something round, particularly a circumference or something that encircles. E.g. The Cyclades islands. I don't remember enough Greek grammar to know whether there is a shortened nominal or other form that might make sense in this context. Nice leaves Tim. I'm not smitten by number 3 either but the others are all nice. Number 4 is particularly striking, or maybe the form of the plant is what I like. Jgwoodard - TN, Zone "6b"   Terryk  My Weather My Garden My Time Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 08:45 pm EST :    All this talk of how to pronounce the coum is bringing to mind Audrey Hepburn in "My Fair Lady". I think I need to practice "the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plains"! Terryk - NY, Zone "6"   Matthias  Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 12:29 am EST :    I have found another interesting attempt at an explanation. Again, no further evidence is given for the correctness of a Greek word "koum" meaning orbicular. If this elusive word really exists somewhere in some hidden corner of Ancient Greek I can hardly believe it should have been used as an epithet in plant taxonomy. Here`s what I have found: "The meaning of the species name coum has been lost. It is probably derived from a Greek word meaning "round" or "oval" & alludes to the roundness to kidney-shape of the leaves, but there are alternate theories. It was in the past suggested that coum might mean "of the Isle of Kos." However, the species is not native to this Aegean island. In 1989 the journal of the Cyclamen Society attempted clarification by suggesting the name meant "from Koa," an ancient name of eastern Cilicia (encompassing part of Armenia & of southeastern Turkey) from whence Solomon obtained horses, & where in fact C. coum does grow wild. In Aramaic, once spoken widely in regions where cyclamens grow, koum means "arise," which was a cry made to a dying & reborn demigod or fertility daemon such as Tamuz or Jesus, who rose in the form of flowers. There's also the region of Al-Koum in Egypt, or Koum (Qum), a sacred town south of Tehran. Al-Koum, Egypt, & Koum, Iran, are within the plant's range. The Iranian village is famed for its carpets with flower & garden scenes. Koum as a place name or as boy's name means "hill" or "highlands," such as where cyclamens might well grow." From: http://www.paghat.com/cyclamencoum5b.html Matthias - Southern Germany, Zone "7"   Gardenfiend  My Weather Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 01:53 am EST :    Joseph, your Greek unfortunately didn't survive travel through the Web, but I imagine it was something along the lines of "kyklas". The problem with that is, it doesn't explain the "o" (and the second "k", at least, should have survived). My half-Greek DH, without any hint from me, immediately said it must mean from the island of Kos. But I think I like Matthias' new theories best. I'm placing my bets on the Iranian Koum - it sounds the most plausible, and I know of other plant names from Persia. Gardenfiend - Germany, Zone "7a"   Tim  Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 12:51 pm EST :    C. coum hasn't, to the best of my knowledge ever been found in Egypt. The Iranian plant isn't C. coum as we know it either. The plant in question used to be known as C. coum subsp. elegans, but the plant has now been raised to specific rank (C. elegans). Its appearance is different to C. coum subsp. coum, and I think it's unlikely that one could be confused with the other. C. elegans is also reproductively isolated from C. coum subsp. coum. Below are two photos of C. elegans. The first isn't all that good, but at least you can see the flowers - just. Not all examples of C. elegans have the silver leaves - these are simply silver leaved forms. Down in the bottom left of the first photo, you might just be able to see the leaf of a 'normal' C. elegans. The second photo is much clearer, taken on the 9th of this month. Tim - Cambridgeshire, Zone "7 "   Terryk  My Weather My Garden My Time Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 07:50 pm EST :    Those are lovely Tim! Does all of the species c. elegans tends to be a more pointed shape? Terryk - NY, Zone "6"